As young children in the sixties when the nation attained independence, the celebration, the aspiration and all the expectations was that Nigeria was going to be a greater country than what we have seen in terms of virtually everything. Well, Nigeria has grown in many dimensions.

We have more universities in the country today; we have more industries even though some of them are not working at the moment. To be candid, with the level of sincerity in the civil service that was there, we thought they will not be problem.

Unfortunately, as we are now, it is disappointing that corruption has become more endemic in Nigeria than what we saw when we attained independence and most of us have been disappointed with what we have seen.

In fact, Nigeria is well placed and has a lot of resources which if well harnessed and there is a credible leadership, no Nigeria should be in want. Today, the poverty rate in Nigeria is so alarming and this is unfortunate in the midst of plenty.

This bore down to corruption. So, you see the expansion because the population has over grown the indices that were predicted at that time. The truth is that we have more schools a more states and there is more resources coming into government at whatever level.

Honestly, it is unfortunate where we are today because we are supposed to be more than this. I remember in 1964 when DIC was set up; it was the same time with the one in Brazil, the same DIC that was established the same year with our own now assembly rockets, they are producing and flying jets and virtually anything you can think of.

In Nigeria today, I think the major production you have there are furniture and some small arms which they started with. That is the situation now. So, you can see that we have not made too much of progress. Unfortunately, there is progress in the realm of corruption and mismanagement.

So, where did we miss it?

I think the problem started with Murtala. When Gowon came into power, they came with this background from the British colonial system. You know that just six years after independence, the military came in and Gowon came in with all purpose and sincerity because of the background and they started well.

At a point, Gowon was saying that Nigeria’s problem was not money, but how to spend it. What that meant is that Nigeria was buoyant economically. But as soon as Murtala made the mistake, things went bad. I don’t know whether it was a mistake or deliberately, it invited corruption into the country. We saw Murtala retiring people with immediate effect.

The implication was that Permanent Secretaries were just doing their work fairly, waiting for when they will be retired and get their benefits. Suddenly, these people were retired and they had no houses to go to because they have not stolen government money.

From that time, we saw the type of corruption we have never seen in our lives before. They started dealing with the issues of contracts and talking their own share of the money from that time. So, you see, Murtala actually brought in corruption into the country by his own policies.

Unfortunately, we have continued with that trend as the thing has continued to grow. Another unfortunate aspect is that we have never really seen ourselves as Nigerians. A northerner will be taking advantage of what he wants taken to the north, a westerner or easterner will be doing the something.

So, nobody is truly thinking like a Nigerian. First, I think as a northerner and that is not good for our development. That is why Nigeria has not been able to develop rapidly like other nations.

The north is constantly in crisis. What do you think is responsible for this and what is the solution?

Let us face this problem sincerely. The north is polarized along Christian and Muslim lines. That is the basic fact. As long as Islam does not accommodate other religions… the unfortunate thing is that people does not seem to understand that in Islam, the whole world is a mosque.

So, if you remove any imperative by burning a church you are sanitizing the mosque. As long as that thing remains in their thinking, we will continue to have problems. Also is in Islam that you use the Islamic factor to get power and consolidate power.

So, the issue is power through Islam because is basically believed that you will not rule over a Muslim. Until they understand that we live in secular society where everybody has a right, until it is addressed and understood and practicalised, we will continue to have problem in the north. The contending issue is power and the belief that a Muslim can never be ruled over by anybody. That thing has been instilled even in children in kindergatin and they grow up with that in mind. I once gave somebody a ride and he told me that a Hausa man was born to rule. I told him he was telling a lie.

To stop this trend, people need to be enlightened and educated. I am sure that these boys hanging on the street, if they are educated, their thinking will be different because some of the educated Muslims don’t think like this because they have the privilege of education.

They are educated sufficiently enough to understand that we can coexist here and that religion is an individual distinction. Everybody is related to God as a community and as individuals.

There has been a leadership crisis at Ahmadu Bello University (ABU) Zaria for some time now and the association has kept quiet about it without saying anything. Why the silence?

I think we are making a mistake here. We were advised by the people in ABU that the church should not come in because it has nothing to do with the Church and that they are capable of handling things. They advised that we should not play religion into it. Unfortunately, we knew that was what was happening. With what we have seen, it is not only in ABU alone. We have a federal university in Kano which is a no go area for Christians who is northerner and even if he is born and brought up in Kano. They prefer to bring someone from Niger Republic or any other place. But a Kano indigene who is from Kano who is a Christian will not be given such a post. We have similar situation throughout the north. Unless this is changed, as long as the Muslim feels that a Christian should not rule over him, then we have a problem. It is just that they cannot have their way and that is why they introduced Sharia which is ensure that you don’t come to power and rule over them. Let me give you a typical example. Birnin Gwari use to be a chiefdom. A Gbagyiman who is a Christian or Muslim can rule over Birnin Gwari. The same thing with Minna, but these people came and turned them to emirate thereby closing the door to Christians ruling over the two places. Right now, no Christian from Minna can rule over the place, but it was not like that before. So, when you take such policies, some people are completely ostracized and who are these people, the none Muslim. That is the same thing that has played out at ABU, Zaria which unfortunate. Unless that thing stops, we will have problem. These are the type of things that make people like Gaddafi the feeling that Nigeria should be divided into two.

Babangida has made his intention known that he intend to contest the 2011 Presidential election and this has received mixed reactions from across the country. What is your own reaction to this development?

I don’t think that Babangida should be serious about that. I think he should forget about the person who is deceiving him. Uptil now, he has not apologized to Christians in Nigeria despite asking him to do so. Babangida was the one who smuggled Nigeria into OIC and all the problems we are having emanated from that. Even though he never attended the OIC meeting, he said the country was there in an observer status until Yar’adua went to Senegal. He was the first Nigerian leader to do that and we challenged that also. We asked why Yar’adua should go to Senegal when Nigeria is not an Islamic country. We have not business with OIC, but Babangida dragged us there. So, you can see that no Christian in Nigeria will ever trust such a person. Christians constitute about 64 percent of the population of this country and if they cannot trust him because of what he did then, then why should he contest? Nigeria is so bad today because of the bad economic policies of his government. We had 300 percent devaluation of the national currency, a thing that has never been done anywhere in the world. Devaluing a currency by about 300 percent was suicidal. That is why Nigeria is still battling with its economy today. So, what is he coming to do now at the age of 70 when there are vibrant youths that should be given the opportunity? Even in America today, Obama is less than 50 and he is giving dynamic leadership to Americans. So, why should we be looking for these people who are over 70? I feel that Babangida’s coming out is not proper and we will have no alternative than to tell the world that we will not support him. Let him go and stay because he has done eight years and we thank for that. There are 150 million Nigerians and if he has had eight years, let him thank God.

Some 19 top members of the PDP were recently suspended by the party for calling for reforms in the party. What do you think this portend for the party in the forth coming elections?

I think that the PDP wants to create confusion within their camp. They have that prerogative to create confusion or to allow their party to fair well. It is a party issue and they have the right to do whatever they want to do. Definitely, a house divided cannot make any reasonable impact.

The former Vice President, Atiku Abubakar is returning to the PDP. What do you think this holds for his political future?

It is unfortunate. When I heard about it, I said it is unfortunate. I think that the man should be more politically wise than this. You see, people judge and respect you when you become consistent. Let people be able to predict you and say we know where this man is going. You are a better person in the society when people can predict your movement. When you are here today, there tomorrow, it means that you are not a serious person. I will seat down and think first before I jump so that when I jump, it is finished. It is very bad when you are here today and there tomorrow. That is why we need quality leaders because tomorrow, he can change and cannot be trusted. The issue of sincerity is that we have sincerity of purpose and a leader should know were he is going and stay there. Whether it is right or wrong, you have made a decision, stay there and people will respect you better.

Three years of the Namadi administration, how would you access the government?

There is a lot of confusing atmosphere about his achievement. I know in terms of security, we worked together to make sure there is security because I signed peace agreement. We signed it with sincerity of purpose in 2002 and since then, we have never had any trouble. We worked together with Makarfi and himself to make sure there is peace in Kaduna state. He has that to his credit by creating Operation Yaki which is very good. Generally, we did an investigation starting from the time of Makarfi and as at the time he came on board, Kaduna state had collected over N100 billion from the Federation Account and in terms of salaries paid to indigenes from Southern Kaduna with their allowances and all the development done in Southern Kaduna, it was only N10 billion. That was during Makarfi which is an extension of this administration. I don’t know what is happening right now, but there has been a lot of outcry that the people of Southern Kaduna are not being empowered by the government. Take the whole Southern Kaduna today, you will not see anybody that can stand and tell you that he can fight anybody financially.

What do you mean by that? Is it that he should take state resources and give to individuals?

No. He should patronize businessmen from Southern Kaduna so that we can have somebody that we can say look, this man has been empowered. Of course, in terms of employment, there is a lot. I am not sure he is aware, but I know that he has been contacted and told that people are really worried in the civil service which is the area that this administration has not done well. There is an outcry there. When you have a level 14 officer being the boss of a level 16 officer is wrong. A situation where you have a level 16 officer as a teacher and a level 14 officer is his principal is wrong because there is nowhere that type of thing is done. But this is happening within his regime. I think that people of good intention has called his attention to that. The civil service needs to be looked into because they were all interviewed and by their qualifications, were employed and they are indigenes of this state. They don’t have any other state and should not be discriminated against in the process of doing his work. But this is happening within this regime.

Will southern Kaduna support him in 2011?

I wouldn’t know because I am not a politician. If the politicians wants to support him, that is their business because they have every right to do whatever they want to do. Sometimes, people don’t want to say the truth and therefore, they go into error. It is better he knows the truth and address it. This thing can be changed today. All he needs to do is call the Head of Service and ask him to bring all the records because he wants to see what is happening. If these people have been marginalized for no just reason that should be corrected.

The ACF is celebrating its 10th anniversary. What is your view on the achievements of the Forum since inception?

I think the true issue is that let there be true integration in the sense that let nobody who is a northerner, be he a Christian, Muslims or animist be discriminated against because of his beliefs. Even when we have less educated people when Sardauna was there, the truth is that Sardauna did try to unify the whole north irrespective of the religious divide. But what we are seeing today is different. The NPC that brought Sardauna to power was an offshoot of the Christians in the north who had opportunity to be educated. Dr. R.A.B Dikko and the rest were the ones that formed NPC and invited Sardauna and Tafawa Balewa into the party. Sardauna came and took over the leadership of the party because they were professionals. They wanted something to unite the north and contend with Action Group and NCNC and that was why they formed the Northern Peoples Congress. They were Christians in the north and when Sardauna came, he said these are our brothers and even if he is apolitical, let him go ahead. So, they went back to their profession. Today, the glory is not given to people like that. They are hiding it as Sardauna brought it when he was invited into the party. This is the insincerity that causes a lot of problem in the north. The Christians did not discriminate against Sardauna even though they were more educated than him.

Are you saying that ACF is discriminating against people?

The ACF are trying to see how they can blend. But generally, they have not done so much to tell the people the truth. If they go Kano and ask Shekarau why he is discriminating against Christians in Kano? Why are they not in key positions, why can’t you appoint them commissioners and they are educated. Then tell the world what is happening. By so doing, people will respect that forum. So, when you come and talk on the outside and the inside is bad. We have so many people, in Sokoto and Zamfara who are indigenes and highly educated but they will never be given appointment. The ACF should have address issues like that. so, since this discrimination is like this are still going.